tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-826986957606858027.post6830224403957224259..comments2023-06-19T10:45:56.724-04:00Comments on Player Versus Developer: What is the Value of Large Raid Groups?Green Armadillohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15564045048380177626noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-826986957606858027.post-14717911929058960512009-04-09T23:29:00.000-04:002009-04-09T23:29:00.000-04:00Here's my take :http://deathknightspree.blogspot.c...Here's my take :<BR/><BR/>http://deathknightspree.blogspot.com/2009/04/to-power-of-ten.htmlStabshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08716211705647213383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-826986957606858027.post-33318429320069896502009-04-08T14:08:00.000-04:002009-04-08T14:08:00.000-04:00"but the realism argument always takes a back seat..."but the realism argument always takes a back seat to playablility."<BR/><BR/>I just don't agree with you there. I think there has to be a balance. Finding this right balance is more an art than it is an exact science, that's for sure. I think that with 40 man raids they went too far in on direction; it was epic bought wound up being totally unplayable. Now I concerned that they are going too far in the opposite direction. <BR/><BR/>A good example of this is Sunwell. It may be true that only 5% of people played that instance. But just because I never played it doesn't mean that it's not important for the health of the game for it to be there. I never PvP either, but WoW would be a very different game if there was no PvP that one could even try. In short, increasing playability shouldn't be about decreasing options, it should be about increasing them. Given that there are limited developer resources, it's always a trade-off. You eliminate reality from the game entirely, and you have Wonder Brite Barbie RPG.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-826986957606858027.post-3804512571826947072009-04-08T10:22:00.000-04:002009-04-08T10:22:00.000-04:00@Fed: If I understand the loot table correctly, th...@Fed: If I understand the loot table correctly, the 10-man hard mode is something like half a tier above the 25-man regular mode, so they're kind of trying your idea. We'll see how that works out. <BR/><BR/>@Daria: Yeah, finding spots in 10-man raiding guilds is rough, it seems like it is hard to get a sweet spot where you can field a group without sitting half the guild. That said, this was a problem in the 40-man era too, and I don't see why it wouldn't be a problem for 25-man content as well, so perhaps your current guild just happens to have the attendence balance just right? <BR/><BR/>@DJ: Wars are not normally fought by having the enemy let you set up a summoning stone in the foyer and instructing their minions to patiently wait to be pulled in small groups. That's not to say that there are no benefits to scale (i.e. the devs can do things to a 25-man group that they can't do to a 10-man, because there'd be no way for the 10-man to handle them), but the realism argument always takes a back seat to playablility. <BR/><BR/>@Larisa: Not to worry, Blizzard is trying to make things work out that way. I just wish there was a way to make the logistics easier; I don't mind rewarding the scale, but I'm less fond of all the dead time you have to put up with as people are AFK or need to be replaced (or can't be replaced, ending a run). <BR/><BR/>@VNDead: Part of me wonders if something like that is on tap for the next expansion. It does seem pretty silly that there's tons of content that players have never seen, and tons of storyline where some poor town is being menaced by a level 20 threat who can be one-shotted by any of literally thousands of adventurers.Green Armadillohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15564045048380177626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-826986957606858027.post-60767301320122009102009-04-07T22:53:00.000-04:002009-04-07T22:53:00.000-04:00I love this post, could be one of the best ever. K...I love this post, could be one of the best ever. Keep it up:)<BR/><BR/>.. secondly, I would love to have old 5man content tuned to the heroic (max) level. All those dungeons in old azeroth + TBC.. wow, that'll just be a lot of fun!..<BR/><BR/>I can only dream but i hope they've already started working on them...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03978498855206780938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-826986957606858027.post-63697119718902302332009-04-07T14:59:00.000-04:002009-04-07T14:59:00.000-04:00@Defty - the feeling of raiding the opposite facti...@Defty - the feeling of raiding the opposite faction's leaders is very different imho than the feeling of raiding a 25-man. I think the faction leader raid is a bit more exciting because you are putting yourself at risk, and on a PvE server that's a new feeling. Also, you probably have 40 people, which is a huge number by today's standards. And you're going into the bad guy's territory - just the whole thing is awesome.<BR/><BR/>Running a 25-man is still good, but it's like golf. You're basically playing against yourself, or your raid, in that the real battle is whether you can follow the right strategy to down a computer-controlled boss that has an aggro radius and behaves in a predictable manner.<BR/><BR/>I have often wondered what life would be like on a PvP server. ;)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-826986957606858027.post-21273185277190909192009-04-07T06:03:00.000-04:002009-04-07T06:03:00.000-04:00I think it varies a lot between different players ...I think it varies a lot between different players how much we value the grandness of bigger groups. I'm really hooked on it myself. Even if I like the smaller, more social, tighter knit 10 man group, there's some epic, big feeling that only a 25 man raid can provide. It would really be sad if the incentives dropped for the 25 man raiding and they switched it so that 10 man was raiding for serious people and 25 man for casual slackers. Honestly I can't see how anyone would be bothered to arrange serious 25 man raids in that case. they would all turn into some silly sort of 25 VoA pugs... Meh.<BR/>If it was up to me they'd keep the best loot and the hardest encounters for 25 man raiding. But I guess I'm a bit conservative.Larísahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05769822260333419777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-826986957606858027.post-54283464701392094802009-04-06T21:00:00.000-04:002009-04-06T21:00:00.000-04:00"I'm not sure what inherent virtue Blizzard sees i..."I'm not sure what inherent virtue Blizzard sees in larger groups, from a business perspective or a game design perspective."<BR/><BR/>I have never been on a 25 man raid but I my perspective is that a 25 raid (does, or should) bring two things to the game. First, I have read many times that people like the "epic" feel to 25 raids. My first sorta taste of this was two nights ago when I went on a "raid" to get the Alliance war bear. Amazingly, we pulled it off and down all four Horde in one go, though it took us about three hours with people dropping in and out of the raid. I can assure you 100% that it was WoW as I had never experienced it before. Maybe some of you people who have been doing 25 mans for a long time have gotten over the thrill and no it's all about loot. But I think Blizzard would lose an important part of the game if they took 25 mans away.<BR/><BR/>The second is from a business POV. The more reasons people have to group, the more committed they are to the game. After all, the sin qua non of MMO is interaction. I am a little unclear why then it would make good business sense to reduce interaction. After all, it's supposed to be the world of "Warcraft." Wars are not normally fought with ten players. I think the drop to 25 from 40 was a big concession to organizational logistics. But at some point in time group size gets too small and you not fighting a "war" anymore.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-826986957606858027.post-63361540921640626882009-04-06T17:23:00.000-04:002009-04-06T17:23:00.000-04:00I'm still not really believing the whole "25-man r...I'm still not really believing the whole "25-man raids are harder on an administration level that's why they deserve better loot" philosophy that Blizzard has.<BR/><BR/>I was in a small 10-man guild and actually found it more frustrating. Because if one person doesn't show up on raid night and you've got a very small roster, you can't fill that spot. Then you are faced with having to pull someone from outside the guild.<BR/><BR/>If you bloat your roster to avoid that, then you have to rotate players in and out, the chances of a raider being present for a full clear that week are slim.<BR/><BR/>Since I've joined a larger guild that can bring more healers to a raid, I haven't had to deal with sitting out.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08664144020646066122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-826986957606858027.post-38562076042491030722009-04-06T16:04:00.000-04:002009-04-06T16:04:00.000-04:00You have to hand it to GC for telling the truth: t...You have to hand it to GC for telling the truth: the hard part of 25-mans is getting 25 people together who are competent and awake.<BR/><BR/>It is interesting to me that the game scales differently between the two group sizes in different situations. Yes, you can probably hide undergeared people better in a 25-man. On the other hand, it's easier to find 10 people who can stay out of void zones than it is to find 25. <BR/><BR/>My guild has focused on 25-mans because that's where the gear is, and as a gear addict, I'm with that. However, I have wondered lately if we couldn't have gotten Glory of the Raider and 310% proto-drakes if we had also put together a 10-man daring, highly trained special mission force. For whatever silly reason, I care deeply about titles and mounts that say "I can hang with the best of them."<BR/><BR/>But we didn't, because the gear is better in 25s. I'll admit that 25s feel more epic, like you've got the whole family together, but the most fun times I've ever had have been in 10-mans, where there's a lot more personal interaction. <BR/><BR/>Regarding your point: I'm not sure what inherent virtue Blizzard sees in larger groups, from a business perspective or a game design perspective. I'm not absolutely sure there is one. Here's what I see as the problem: People run them now. Blizzard apparently likes this. No one would likely run them if they gave the same loot as 10-mans. <BR/><BR/>What if 10-mans were noticeably harder than 25-mans, and gave the same loot? That would create a whole new issue, because Blizzard rightly associates 25s with hardcore players, and 10s with groups of players who aren't hardcore enough to put together a larger group or guild. 10s are there for more casual people, so why make them harder than 25s just so they can share loot?<BR/><BR/>Well, you could do it by having a hard-mode 10-man and a casual 10-man, with the former sharing loot with 25-mans. I think that's an interesting option, but I still think it's easier to find 10 good players to do 10-man hard mode than it is to find 25 awake players to do 25s. And it's a moot issue, because right now there are hard modes for 25s.<BR/><BR/>In the end it's probably a non-issue; Blizzard probably figures that casuals are happy just to be seeing the content for once, and that they can gear up on easy mode and then try hard modes if they want better gear and more prestige. Meanwhile, they are still servicing the Insidias of the world by keeping the best loot in 25-man hard modes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com