tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-826986957606858027.post8038104536886906536..comments2023-06-19T10:45:56.724-04:00Comments on Player Versus Developer: Why Not Join the Age of PUG Raiding?Green Armadillohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15564045048380177626noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-826986957606858027.post-48956654509076545212009-02-12T15:17:00.000-05:002009-02-12T15:17:00.000-05:00@Daria: Yeah, I've heard the margin of error criti...@Daria: Yeah, I've heard the margin of error criticism of current 25-mans from a number of places. Guess we'll have to wait and see how that pans out going forward. <BR/><BR/>@Fed: First, it's worth noting that there are a total of 10 bosses in SSC and TK. Ulduar has been described as "huge", I thought I heard a similar number of bosses to Naxx, which would make tier 8 as large or larger than tier 5, just all in one zone instead of two. Likewise, Hyjal and Sunwell collectively added up to 11 bosses, while BT offered 9. If Icecrown equals the Black Temple, that only leaves 11ish 25 man bosses unaccounted for. <BR/><BR/>The missing link is mystery patch 3.2. At Blizzcon last year, Blizzard said that they're planning three content patches, 3.1 has Ulduar, 3.3 has Icecrown (unless it has to be delayed to kill time for the next expansion, they want Arthas to be the final boss of Wrath), and they weren't willing to say anything about 3.2. <BR/><BR/>I'm pretty sure that they know what they're doing, but aren't talking because mentioning it that far back would spoil some upcoming plotline. Some people think that the Ulduar arc will lead to Uldum in Tanaris, but somehow I suspect that they'll want to provide a change of scenery, rather than more Titan architecture. The <A HREF="http://www.wowwiki.com/Uldum" REL="nofollow">Wiki Article</A> also has a quote that it won't be in this expansion. <BR/><BR/>My best guess is that 3.2 will foreshadow the next expansion somehow. One obvious angle would be to have a raid (and subsequent expansion) that follows the aftermath of the war among the dragonflights. Expansion number three isn't going to have a villian that needs no introduction like Illidan or Arthas, because we've killed all the marquis Warcraft III villians. Having it be the focus of a major patch in Wrath would help set the stage. If I'm right, that means they're holding info on 3.2 until they're ready to formally announce the name of the third expansion.Green Armadillohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15564045048380177626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-826986957606858027.post-72504736632125348842009-02-12T14:09:00.000-05:002009-02-12T14:09:00.000-05:00I expect to see each raiding tier increasing in di...I expect to see each raiding tier increasing in difficulty. They've said Ulduar will be harder; I expect that Icecrown may be practically impossible to PUG.<BR/><BR/>I'm cool with that. In the meantime, I think Blizzard started off the right way - instead of smacking people down the first time they try to raid, they are providing the oppotunity to experience success, which reinforces to new raiders that it's a fun and viable activity.<BR/><BR/>One question that interests me: Tier 4 had 3 raids - Kara, Gruul's, Mag's. Tier 5 had two - TK and SSC. Tier 6 had two - Hyjal and Black Temple. And then there was Sunwell. Oh hey, I forgot about ZA in there as well.<BR/><BR/>Is there any way that Wrath is going to have as much raid content as BC did? I would say that what we have now is basically equivalent to T4, and most of it is recycled - the rest are all one-boss raids. <BR/><BR/>We've heard of Ulduar and Icecrown, but what else can we expect? SSC+TK+MH+BT+ZA+SP = 6 fully-featured, multi-boss raids after Tier 4. Right now we're hearing about 2 beyond Tier 7. <BR/><BR/>Maybe they are planning more? Or maybe they have funnelled some of their people into the next expansion already, to try and get them out on a more regular basis, ala the 1 per year they say they'd like? Food for thought...<BR/><BR/>Fedaykin98Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-826986957606858027.post-9861840167171089492009-02-12T11:44:00.000-05:002009-02-12T11:44:00.000-05:00I see your point totally about PUG raids and I wou...I see your point totally about PUG raids and I wouldn't want to do them either.<BR/><BR/>It is satisfying to down bosses with your guild for the first time.<BR/>I think your idea of trying to get into your guild's rotation would be a good one.<BR/><BR/>Raiding is so much different now from the 40-man days, which I used to do as well but got burned out on it. You can spend 3-4 hours of one evening and get a lot of gear drops for that effort.<BR/><BR/>But I also agree that 25-mans as they stand now are a little too easy, in fact I find them to be easier than the 10-man versions, because people can screw up and you can still pull it out.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08664144020646066122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-826986957606858027.post-36588646607387957702009-02-12T11:41:00.000-05:002009-02-12T11:41:00.000-05:00@Fed: Heh, you know, I've never really thought of ...@Fed: Heh, you know, I've never really thought of the blog as a downside guarantee - if what I'm doing now sucks, at least I'll get a post out of it. Guess there's a bright side to everything. :) <BR/><BR/>@Race: That way is the route they've always gone in the past, and ironically they may be going the opposite direction this time - the mana regen nerfs in the patch could DECREASE accessibility as the content leaves the cutting edge. <BR/><BR/>In my view, the issue begins and ends with the fact that there's only one full-fledged raid in the expansion. The problem with starting very hard and nerfing later is that you've already slammed people who can't make the cut into the wall and had them quit raiding. It appears that this is what happened in TBC, and that's probably why Blizzard reversed course nearly 100% for the current expansion. What they needed to do was have Naxx in its current form AND a real raid for real raiding heroics ready for launch. Instead, it's looking like they'll need at least 4 months post launch, and that's a long time to leave the more "heroic" (dedicated, etc) crowd hanging.Green Armadillohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15564045048380177626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-826986957606858027.post-13143717912296571392009-02-12T10:05:00.000-05:002009-02-12T10:05:00.000-05:00I wish the 25 man version was actually harder than...I wish the 25 man version was actually harder than 10 man. Make it 'Heroic' <BR/><BR/>But Blizzard has decided to cater to the casual which is there buisness decision to make. I'd rather see a compromise, where 25 man raids started off tuned much harder and then when the next tier of raid was released they would get nerfed, so the less serious players could still experience them and the more serious raiders would still have a challenge.Racehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14137964537916163766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-826986957606858027.post-54376582715869361952009-02-11T15:52:00.000-05:002009-02-11T15:52:00.000-05:00You make a good point that zerging through Naxx25 ...You make a good point that zerging through Naxx25 one-shotting every boss with a PUG (which is exactly what I did last week) doesn't carry with it the sense of accomplishment that struggling a bit before succeeding does. <BR/><BR/>To give some reference, the first Naxx25 PUG I ran with, pretty early on in Wrath, needed several shots at most of the bosses. I'm not sure how many we one-shotted, if any. I think this was the server first PUG of Naxx25. I know we wiped on Patchwerk and Grobbulus several times, especially Patchwerk.<BR/><BR/>The second PUG I ran with was much smoother, but wiped two or three times on Thaddius before downing him, and then clearing the rest of the instance. <BR/><BR/>So even in a successful PUG, there's often that middle ground between total fail and auto-pilot loot pinata.<BR/><BR/>Two more notes: A lot of the better PUGs are led by the same person on the same day every week, and often advertised in the individual realm forums (the only official forums I'll look at). Many of them are "hosted" by guilds that are not quite big enough to do their own 25s. Runs like that, with a core of strong raiders from one guild, tend to be fairly successful.<BR/><BR/>Give it a shot some night when you have a kitchen pass and some time on your hands - if nothing else, you can write about it here! :)<BR/><BR/>Fedaykin98Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com